1 Topic by Syrphus

  • Syrphus
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Topic: Designation inconsistency

Hello Chris.

I am working on Lispocephala just now, and find that on the Gateway only L. falculata is given has having any designations at all (Nationally Notable From: 1991-01-01; IUCN (pre 1994) - Rare From: 1987-01-01).

In R6, Dictionary 3B, L. pallipalpis and L. spuria are listed in the 'short names' as Notable, and L. brachialis as RedList_GB_Pre94-R, the same designations as are given for falculata (Notable, RedList_GB_Pre94-R).

Which designations are correct?

Murdo

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2 Reply by Syrphus

  • Syrphus
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Re: Designation inconsistency

Just as an add-on to that query, I thought 'Notable' was now 'Nationally Scarce' anyway, so that would seem to be another inconsistency. The R6 dictionary does have short name 'NS-excludes', long name 'Nationally Scarce. Excludes Red Listed taxa'.  So should the 'Notable' not be 'NS-excludes'?

M.

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3 Reply by MikeWeideli

  • MikeWeideli
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Re: Designation inconsistency

As far as  Recorder6  is concerned the entry for L. pallipalpis looks like ir comes from a designation for Caricea pallipalpis which has a recommended name of L. pallipalpis.

Mike Weideli

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4 Reply by Syrphus

  • Syrphus
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Re: Designation inconsistency

Thanks, Mike. There is a recent paper from some notable (ha!) dipterists that has pallipalpis as Nationally Scarce (Dipterists Digest 2014 21, 1-36 The diversity of Diptera associated with a British hedge ROBERT J. WOLTON, HOWARD BENTLEY, PETER J. CHANDLER, C. MARTIN DRAKE, JOHN KRAMER, ADRIAN R. PLANT and ALAN E. STUBBS).

It was this that set me off on the trail, and I would guess that this list of eminent dipterists have it correct. It does suggest that the designations part of R6 needs an overhaul.

M.

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5 Reply by MikeWeideli

  • MikeWeideli
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Re: Designation inconsistency

The designations are updated by JNCC and it hasn't been done for a while. R6 and the Gateway use the same dictionaries, but  R6 will link designation based on the recommended names which may be why it differs from the Gateway. My concern is mainly to ensure that R6 correctly reflects what is in the dictionaries, but agree that  the designation should be kept up to date for everyones benefit.

Mike Weideli

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6 Reply by ChrisR

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Re: Designation inconsistency

I have chatted with Dario at the JNCC about updating the designations but I think their workload is preventing him from doing an update. I'm sure he will get to it when he has the chance :)

Chris Raper, Manager of the UK Species Inventory, Angela Marmont Centre for UK Biodiversity,
Natural History Museum, Cromwell Road, London, SW7 5BD.  (tel: 020 7942 5894)
also Tachinid Recording Scheme (http://tachinidae.org.uk/)

7 Reply by Syrphus

  • Syrphus
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Re: Designation inconsistency

Thanks, Chris.  On the same subject, so maybe to be corrected as and when the resources free up, we are still getting feral ferrets returned as highly designated because of the taxonomic link with Polecat.  I did report that some while ago, but since the matter has arisen in a new guise I am just dropping in a reminder!

M.

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8 Reply by ChrisR

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Re: Designation inconsistency

Ahh, I remember this old chestnut - is it because the system is treating subspecies as the same designation as the species? I'm pretty sure that this is something I can't correct because here the designations are correctly attached to the species, not the subspecies. I think it is a reporting issue in Recorder6 ... but that's just from memory, from discussions we have had earlier on.

Chris Raper, Manager of the UK Species Inventory, Angela Marmont Centre for UK Biodiversity,
Natural History Museum, Cromwell Road, London, SW7 5BD.  (tel: 020 7942 5894)
also Tachinid Recording Scheme (http://tachinidae.org.uk/)

9 Reply by charliebarnes

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Re: Designation inconsistency

Yes, that's right AFAIK - that children inherit their parents designations (in Recorder): http://forums.nbn.org.uk/viewtopic.php?pid=21057#p21057

Charlie Barnes
Information Officer
Greater Lincolnshire Nature Partnership

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10 Reply by Syrphus

  • Syrphus
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Re: Designation inconsistency

I sure that is the root of the problem with Polecat/Ferret, Chris.

I have just done a little test in R6 with Wren, where the binomial (from the Gateway) is Berne https://data.nbn.org.uk/Taxa/NHMSYS0000530671

The nominate, Shetland and Hebridean sspp. have nothing https://data.nbn.org.uk/Taxa/NHMSYS0020303229 and https://data.nbn.org.uk/Taxa/NHMSYS0020303232  https://data.nbn.org.uk/Taxa/NHMSYS0020303231.  Likewise T.t. indigenus https://data.nbn.org.uk/Taxa/NHMSYS0020303230

Fair Isle and St Kilda sspp. are gold-plated in designations https://data.nbn.org.uk/Taxa/NHMSYS0001596569 and https://data.nbn.org.uk/Taxa/NHMSYS0001596570

Entering all of these in R6 and reporting name and designations, the binomial and the four undesignated sspp. are returned as Bern-A2, while the other two sspp. are given their full designations PLUS Berne.  So if you are not a designated ssp. you inherit in R6 reports the designation from the binomial; and if you are a specially designated ssp. you have these ADDED to the binomial's designation.  It is possible to ADD a designation to a ssp., but not to remove one, it seems, which is what needs to be implemented for the Ferret.

So, as you suggest, it is a knotty task for the R6 folk.

M.

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11 Reply by ChrisR

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Re: Designation inconsistency

Ahh, yes now it all comes flooding back. Mike was possibly right to extend protection to subspecies but I'm not sure if that is actually the case under law - I'll have to bring that up with the JNCC. The Mammal Society list Ferret as a species in its own right but I think that is wrong because Ferret is just a domesticated form of the Polecat. It's a difficult one because to make it a species would go against science just to correct the designatory system.

Chris Raper, Manager of the UK Species Inventory, Angela Marmont Centre for UK Biodiversity,
Natural History Museum, Cromwell Road, London, SW7 5BD.  (tel: 020 7942 5894)
also Tachinid Recording Scheme (http://tachinidae.org.uk/)