1 Topic by Wolfgang

  • Wolfgang
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Topic: Taxon designation

Hello,
I did a search for my question, but couldn't find the answer on the forum so far:
I try to extract records from Recorder, which are designated using an Access database linked to the Recorder database. Now I came accross some species, where the desgnation, which I see in my query in Access is not visible in Recorder and which should not be in Recorder.  I wonder, how that can happen?
For my query I'm using the index tables, which I have rebuilt directly before running the query.
My query for one of the species, which shows a designation in the query but not in Recorder, is here:
SELECT Index_Taxon_Designation.Taxon_Designation_Type_Key, INDEX_TAXON_NAME.ACTUAL_NAME
FROM INDEX_TAXON_NAME INNER JOIN Index_Taxon_Designation ON INDEX_TAXON_NAME.TAXON_LIST_ITEM_KEY = Index_Taxon_Designation.Taxon_List_Item_Key
WHERE (((INDEX_TAXON_NAME.ACTUAL_NAME)="Onobrychis viciifolia subsp. collina"));
It actually has the two same designations as the parent species (Onobrychis viciifolia). One of the designations is the one I entered myself for Onobrychis viciifolia (English Red List of plants). The other designation is supplied by the system.
IT recently moved the database to another SQL Server. IT told me the new place and I have a ODBC-connection set up to that place. Unfortunately I can't check in Recorder, if it really gets the data from the same place, or is there a way?
What am I doing wrong? 
It would be great, if somebdoy could help me please.

Wolfgang

2 Reply by AndyFoy

  • AndyFoy
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Re: Taxon designation

One simple way to check your ODBC connection is pointing to the correct SQL Server is to temporarily add a new SURVEY in Recorder6 and then see if you can see it when querying the SURVEY table from the Access database.

Andy Foy
Systems Manager
Greenspace Information for Greater London (GiGL) CIC
www.gigl.org.uk

3 Reply by Wolfgang

  • Wolfgang
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Re: Taxon designation

Hi Andy,
thanks for the quick answer and the good idea. Unfortunately (?) it turned out, that the connection of the Access database is to the same data than Recorder6.

Wolfgang

4 Reply by AndyFoy

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Re: Taxon designation

As far as I know ...

The Recorder6 taxon dictionary browser will only show designations on the right of the window for a taxon when the designation is attached directly to that taxon_list_item_key.

System supplied designations are typically added to taxa in the 'JNCC collation of taxon designations' list, so you will only see system supplied designations on the right of the taxon dictionary browser window when showing this list.

User added designations can be added to any taxa in any list, so you will need to know which list item they were added to in order to see them in the taxon dictionary browser window.

When the index_taxon_designation table is rebuilt, all taxa that share the same recommended_taxon_list_item_key as a taxon_list_item_key with a designation will be included in the index with the same designation (regardless of which list they are on).

In Recorder6, to see if any taxon, on any list, has a designation in the index_taxon_designation table, you need to run a report.  Right-click on the taxon in the taxon dictionary browser window, selection 'Quick Report', 'System reports', 'information', 'SxBRC find designations for taxons'.  This will show any designations for any taxons that share the same recommended_taxon_list_item_key as this taxon.

I may have this all wrong, but this is how I understand it.

Do your designations appear when running this report on the subsp?

Andy Foy
Systems Manager
Greenspace Information for Greater London (GiGL) CIC
www.gigl.org.uk

5 Reply by Wolfgang

  • Wolfgang
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Re: Taxon designation

Hi Andy,
thanks for your answer. I've learned something more about Recorder. I had realised, that not all designation were directly visible on the right side of the taxon browser. But I thought, that species with exactly the same (effective) designation should look the same on the right side of the taxon browser. I've now learned, that is not the case.
The report 'SxBRC find designations for taxons' finds the same designations for Onobrychis viciifolia subsp. collina and Onobrychis viciifolia. That's consistent with Access then. But I'm not sure, if I'm happy about it, because it makes it difficult (impossible?) to have different designations for a subspecies and its parent species.
In the table 'INDEX_TAXON_NAME' Onobrychis viciifolia subsp. collina and Onobrychis viciifolia have two different recommended_taxon_list_item_keys. So I still don't undertstand, why both taxa get the same designations.

6 Reply by MikeWeideli

  • MikeWeideli
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Re: Taxon designation

When Index_Taxon_Designation is populated, it expands the taxa down the  taxonomic hierarchy so that sub species get the same designation as the species. I am not sure in what circumstances a species could have a  designated which doesn't apply to the sub species.  However, a sub species can have  designation which does not apply to the species. This is handled by  including the sub-species only (and not the species) in the designation. As Index Taxon Desgnation only expands down the hierarchy only the sub species will get the designation.

Mike Weideli

MikeWeideli's Website

7 Reply by Wolfgang

  • Wolfgang
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Re: Taxon designation

Hello Mike,
thanks for clarifying that. I think, the problem for me is that the English Red List doesn't follow the logic, which Recorder assumes: There can't be designations of the same type for a species and its subspecies. Either only the species has a designation, then the subspecies inherit that, or the subspecies (or only on of them) have a designation, then the species doesn't inherit that.
But e.g. Onobrychis viciifolia ssp. collina has the designation WL on the English Red List and Onobrychis viciifolia has the designation VU. I now entered the designation WL from the English Red List for Onobrychis viciifolia ssp. collina (and had already entered the designation VU for Onobrychis viciifolia) and when I check now the effective designations for Onobrychis viciifolia ssp. collina, it comes up with VU (inherited designation) and WL (own designation), so two designations, which should be in my understanding mutually exclusive.
Maybe the creation of Index_Taxon_Designation could be changed, so that subspecies only inherit designations of their parent species, if they don't have a designation of the same type already?

Thanks,
Wolfgang

8 Reply by AndyFoy (edited by AndyFoy 09-06-2015 14:30:57)

  • AndyFoy
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Re: Taxon designation

Hi Mike

Will all children be assigned designations from their parents?  For example, will hybrids, varieties and forms also be designated too?

Thanks
Andy

Andy Foy
Systems Manager
Greenspace Information for Greater London (GiGL) CIC
www.gigl.org.uk

9 Reply by RobLarge

  • RobLarge
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Re: Taxon designation

Andy

Think we have had this discussion before. Hybrids are not child taxa of the parent species. That is to say that although they are clearly the descendants, taxonomically they should sit at the same level of the hierarchy as the parent species (children of the genus, for intrageneric hybrids, or of a hybrid pseudogenus for intergeneric hybrids.)

Varieties and forms, it seems to me should inherit the designations of the taxonomic species. Do you have examples in mind where this should not be the case

Rob Large
Wildlife Sites Officer
Wiltshire & Swindon Biological Records Centre

RobLarge's Website

10 Reply by Lindsay_FifeNature

  • Lindsay_FifeNature
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Re: Taxon designation

Hi,

Slightly hijacking this thread, but it is to do with taxon designations and hierarchy!  Apologies if this has been discussed before - I can't find it on the forum.

I was just taking a look at the JNCC collation of taxon designations.  When used in reporting, it doesn't seem to apply to a whole species hierarchy - e.g. Motacilla alba is on the list, but Motacilla alba subsp. yarrellii doesn't seem to get picked up; similarly  Corvus corone and Corvus corone subsp. corone.

Is this something others see too?

Thanks :)
Linds

Lindsay Bamforth
Fife Nature Records Centre,
Information Officer

Lindsay_FifeNature's Website