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Topic: PLEASE SORT THIS SITE!

Once again I was trying to get some work done with the assistance of the Gateway (I assume, despite the evidence, that is what the Gateway is intended for).

I find the grid map for Bombus ruderarius https://data.nbn.org.uk/Taxa/NHMSYS0000875532/Grid_Map shows no dots at all (Opera and Chrome, after repeated refresh).  I know that is not the correct picture.

Amazingly, if I click the link to the IMT, I get a map covered in dots.

Would the IT staff please just take the site offline until the mess is fully and finally fixed?

A resource that is as unpredictable, unreliable and untrustworthy as G5 is currently is worse than useless, as no-one can be expected to recognise every time if the maps are displaying correctly or not, and may make grossly erroneous conclusions from what they see.

Murdo

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Re: PLEASE SORT THIS SITE!

How did you get that URL? When I search for 'ruderarius' and go to the grid map from the taxon page, it shows me plenty of dots - but the TVK is different.

Your TVK is for one of the synonyms (Bombus (Thoracombus) ruderarius (Müller, 1776)), which is probably why no dots are shown - but then I guess you shouldn't have been able to click a link that shows you a grid map for a synonym. Did you type the URl yourself?

Clicking on the grid map from https://data.nbn.org.uk/Taxa/NHMSYS0000875532 takes you (correctly) to the valid name.

Charlie Barnes
Information Officer
Greater Lincolnshire Nature Partnership

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Re: PLEASE SORT THIS SITE!

Hello Murdo

The issue you are seeing with the grid map is as Charlie suggests in that the maps on the NBN Gateway all run off the preferred taxonversionkey so that records recorded against synonymous names, including common names are included within the species maps.

On clicking on a map link within the NBN Gateway, the NBN Gateway automatically checks for and uses the preferred taxonversionkey to request the map which is the reason why going to the Interactive Map through the NBN Gateway results in the map showing the grid squares for this species, where as using an external link with a non preferred taxonversionkey results in a blank map.

Best wishes

Graham
NBN Technical Liaison Officer

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Re: PLEASE SORT THIS SITE!

The TVK was in a spreadsheet which was set up by SNH staff. The link was a =Hyperlink(...) function using that TVK.

If there is a failure to link correctly to non-preferred synonyms to the proper map, that is a major fault.

The hyperlink I used displays a map headed 'Grid map for Bombus (Thoracombus) ruderarius (Müller, 1776)'. This I can see
has the old misspelled subgenus which was in a previous list, but no-one I know pays any attention to subgenera when calling species.  I believe that the subgenus is not an proper part of the scientific name anyway.

The hyperlink you suggest I should have used displays a map headed 'Grid map for Bombus (Thoracobombus) ruderarius (Müller, 1776)'.

Please note - there are many ways to get to taxon maps, not just ploughing through via the taxon search page.  People have been creating files with hyperlinks using TVKs for a long time, long before G5 came into being.  When they were created, the TVK would have worked properly.  Do you expect everyone who has used these old TVKs to revise their files?

If I go to the taxon page and click on the outdated name Bombus (Thoracombus) ruderarius, I get 'redirected' to  Bombus (Thoracobombus) ruderarius. Why should I not expect the same to happen when I use a link that incorporates an outdated TVK?

The link to the IMT from the first grid map points to https://data.nbn.org.uk/Taxa/NHMSYS0000 … Grid_Map#.  If the 'Thoracombus' grid map has a link that points to the 'Thoracobombus' IMT, then somewhere in the software the algorithm 'knows' that the two are the same species.  So why does it not 'know' that fact when dealing with the grid map? And as Charlie pointed out, the link from the 'Thoracombus' taxon page goes to the 'Thoracobombus' grid map.

If anyone thinks this situation is either sensible, or consistent, or helpful, please try to convince me.

This comes hard on the heels of another fault I reported a few days ago, relating to the non-display of dots and completely unpredictable behaviour of both the grid map and IMT in relation to 2 other taxa (Agalma elegans and Andrena ruficrus) which I accessed via the taxon search page.  So there was no problem there with outdated TVKs.  So far these have not had any response http://forums.nbn.org.uk/viewtopic.php?id=5688 and http://forums.nbn.org.uk/viewtopic.php?id=5692. It would be nice to know that someone responsible for the site was at least vaguely interested in analysing and correcting these.  I don't think I can be blamed for suspecting that the Bombus problem was another manifestation of these earlier faults.

I am really not interested in technical explanations, and being urged to take the long route to a map when what should be a perfectly legal shortcut exists.  If the gateway has any reason for existence at all, it should exist to serve the users, and telling users they ought to provide their own solutions to blatant inconsistencies and shortcomings in the design of the Gateway is arrogant and completely unacceptable. We have had that before, of course, in relation to EasyMaps and the syntax of the G5 URLs being incompatible with the old G4 URLs. If there was less emphasis on digital bling, and more on utility and consistency it would be a good thing all round.

Now here's an interesting fact.  In the old gateway, have a look at the maps for
http://old-data.nbn.org.uk/gridMap/grid … 0000875532 'Thoracombus' and
http://old-data.nbn.org.uk/gridMap/grid … 0020758448 'Thoracobombus' and see if you can spot any differences.  These are the exact analogues of the G5 calls we have alluded to above.

Once again, we have an example of sensible and eminently useful programming which has been discontinued in the 'new improved' G5.

M.

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Re: PLEASE SORT THIS SITE!

A lack of comprehension with respect to the way in which many of use Gateway by the developers has left us floundering in a taxonomic maze. For example if I am checking the recorded presence/absence of a species on NBN, I'll type in the species name and chose the appropriate name from the search results and link to the interactive map. If it belongs to a taxon I am not familiar with I usually choose the simple binomial and ignore the other varieties etc. This is normally fine but it the species is part of complex and I do not immediately notice sensu lato I can get very misleading results. For example I was looking at Cladonia chlorophaea, I missed the s.l. and was confused as there were no dots on the map for the Outer Hebrides where it is a common species.
Too many of us who use NBN the taxonomic status of the species we're interested in is irrelevant we just want to see the overall distribution. So we need a search that comes up with the preferred TVK first and then perhaps give us an option of the other versions. If the Gateway is not user friendly it will not be used by the local recorders who should be using it and it makes life difficult for those of us who are trying to ensure that the records you receive are of high quality. Perhaps we need an NBN "Gateway Lite" or developers who are prepared to listen to the users and will try to give us what we want and not what they think we need.

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Re: PLEASE SORT THIS SITE!

Well said, Chris!

M.

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Re: PLEASE SORT THIS SITE!

To pick up on the original problem, and to highlight the inconsistency of the explanation offered by Graham above, if I use the 'wrong' TVK for each of the grid map and the IMT, I get this:

https://data.nbn.org.uk/Taxa/NHMSYS0000875532/Grid_Map gives a blank map, but

http://data.nbn.org.uk/imt/?mode=SPECIE … 0000875532 gives the full plot.

(It is ironic that the original function in the XL sheet pointed to the IMT, but because on the day I was doing the task the IMT was throwing one of its frequent tantrums, to 'save time' I added the function that pointed to the grid map, and then the TVK problem was exposed.)

I don't hear the sound of multitudes falling off their chairs in shock at this revelation, accustomed as we are to the most bizarre inconsistencies all through G5.  Did someone think this was a good idea?  Or did no-one think at all?

Is someone at NBN logging this and all the other algorithmic idiocies that have been reported in the past 14 months or so, with the ambition of correcting them before hell freezes over and the seas gang dry?

M.

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Re: PLEASE SORT THIS SITE!

Hello Murdo

The inconsistancy you are describing seems to be the result of the Interactive Mapping Tool converting the externally provided synonymous TaxonVersionKey to the preferred TaxonVersionKey prior to requesting the map whereas the Grid map is not. I have logged this as an issue to be looked into.

Best wishes
Graham
NBN Technical Liaison Officer

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Re: PLEASE SORT THIS SITE!

Thanks, Graham.  I hope when this matter is corrected, we will have the grid map behave in the same (very helpful and sensible) way that the IMT does just now, and not vv.

As the coding exists already, it should not take long.

M.

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Re: PLEASE SORT THIS SITE!

This issue with the grid map displaying blank maps should now be resolved, with the external links displaying maps using the preferred taxonversionkey. For cases where the preferred name is different from the name, that corresponds to the TVK used in the link, the synonymous name is provided under the preferred name.

Best wishes

Graham
NBN Technical Liaison Officer

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Re: PLEASE SORT THIS SITE!

Thanks, Graham.

When can we expect even a few of the many other serious problems on the Gateway - notified since even before G5 went live nearly a year and a quarter ago - to be dealt with?  Some of the absurdities of the interface could, I am sure, be sorted by changing one value in a line of code, and many others with only a little more than that.

M.